Replies: 46 comments 121 replies
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@dberlow please do a review |
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Thank you @dberlow! |
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pardon my ignorant question, but from what tool is this screenshot from? |
Hey, I don't think it's really public, but I was curious and found it: https://variable-type-tools.appspot.com/ |
There was a reply out-of-thread-order (likely by email) here: #463 (comment) |
ah, thank you! And thank you for Inter. It's one of the few fonts I enjoy everytime I see it. One of the few where I don't mind seing it being used more and more and I still love it. It's such a joy to see it and how readable it is even in small sizes. β€οΈ |
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Did a lot of work on this today on basic latin glyph design in the 400 & 900 weights as well as over-all tracking reduction to 400 & 900 opsz masters. I've updated the "Latest beta build" link above with a fresh build. |
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This looks great, thanks. I will not get to the requested review until the end of the week. Are you panning any major updates between now and then?
On May 30, 2022, at 10:56 PM, Rasmus ***@***.***> wrote:
ο»Ώ
Did a lot of work on this today on basic latin glyph design in the 400 & 900 weights as well as over-all tracking reduction to 400 & 900 opsz masters. I've updated the "Latest beta build" link above with a fresh build.
β
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe.
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Yeah, there's a lot more coming over the next few months. 99% of the changes will be to the opsz masters, which is a new addition currently not in the stable release. For GF, I would wait to review this for an update until the opsz work is done or at least at a release quality. The most recent stable release (without opsz) is v3.19 |
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The beta Inter build doesn't work with the |
Also, I'm testing this by using the Inter lab (https://rsms.me/inter/lab/) and using DevTools to replace the font |
That is probably not going to work, in any case I canβt help you with that approach. Sorry |
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Well, I also tried to use Inter V in a test webpage with the Edit: by using the font locally |
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Works just fine for me: https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/ |
That works great. Maybe it only works with the WOFF2, and doesn't work with a TTF? |
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It looks like capital letters aren't affected much, though the letter-spacing seems slightly different. Is it possible to make the capital letters softer like the lowercase ones, or is it supposed to look like this? In my opinion, I think it would be better to have the capital letters to match the softer style of the lowercase letters. Top: opsz 16; Bottom: opsz 72
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Many capital letters in the opsz designs are copies from the non-opsz designs (but far from all.) For now. There's a lot of cleanup work to be done first from the UPM conversion (Glyphs.app shifted most BΓ©zier handles on curves 1dp off center which means thousands of manual edits need to be done.) Once that work is complete I'll start looking into improving the design of the opsz glyphs. (Keep in mind that the opsz work is in progress and maybe 20% complete) |
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Latest build (updated link in top post) has several capital letters redesigned (opsz=32,wght=400β900, wght 100 is unchanged.) |
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Italic letters seem to be a little wacky...
On https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/ but I set |
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Also, the slant uses negative numbers (-10 to 0).
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That is faked italics from your browser. |
Even if it's fake, I wouldn't think that it would normally slant that much. |
The excessive slant is a sign that it is faked. |
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Sadly, that makes Inter V incompatible with other fonts:
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Seems that capital O has more horizontal spacing than other Capital characters. Is that by design?
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Nice catch. I had fixed it but forgot to upload a recent font file to the https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/ demo. Done now. Before: After: |
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Slant seems a bit weird with opsz 32 letters... |
I have barely started on the italic/oblique design. Consider it non-existent for slnt>0, for now. |
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Okay, latest beta has a lot of italic/slanting glyphs fixed for opsz>14 |
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Nice! |
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I found a weird bug with arrows using opsz 32... (It's only after certain characters, like question marks and exclamation marks, but not after periods, commas or three spaces)
Examine closely... For example,
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Good catch. Thanks! |
I like to help out as much as I can! π |
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Here are some other characters that get messed up.
This issue affects all of Inter V, but not "normal" Inter. |
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Fixed and a new build has been uploaded. Get it from the link in the top message |
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https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/ is no longer working, as https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/Inter.var.woff2 is no longer findable (returns 404). |
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Hi, first of all, thanks for Inter! π I found an issue with grave accents: screen-20220710-095630.2.mp4 |
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Fixed. New build uploaded. |
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I found a bug. Latest beta version (Inter_opsz_beta-4.00-20220711_1211-a3f2248434.zip) affect my arabic font. Mim and Dal letters look abnormal. |
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I don't think Inter has full Arabic support yet. It just has a couple of new currency symbols. |
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Probably the glyphs for those specific Arabic characters got updates (see the aforementioned currency symbols), but the rest of the arabic glyphs didn't get any changes. |
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No, Sir. I've checked it. Version 3.19, Inter-4.00-e77ce318de, and two or three versions before this looked amazing. No issues |
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Did you now using this font on Android @esqienes? |
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This likely happens because you have your font chain (aka font fallback) setup with Inter overriding an Arabic font. Inter contains two Arabic glyphs (as you've noticed) which Android will use instead of the glyphs from whatever Arabic font is after Inter in your font config. To "fix" this you need to give your Arabic font higher priority than Inter. (I'm not an Android user, so I can't help you with how to configure Android.) |
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Tried to upload to Figma for some additional testing with other designers so they don't have to install manually, but I get an error saying "This font has missing or invalid fields". Seems to work fine in Figma with it installed locally. |
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Sounds like a Figma bug. Having worked on Figma, I happen to know that the "organization fonts" feature has some dedicated font parsing code, separate from what the editor uses, and so it isn't subject to the same hight quality standards and is more likely to be buggy. If I were you I'd report the issue to Figma. I'm sure they would appreciate it. |
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FYI, I sent in a support request with the InterV.var.ttf file from the Inter-4.00-3f174fcef6 download and they replied with this:
Just tried uploading the same file from the Inter-4.00-00e4135b78 build and still get the same error unfortunately. |
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There's now a fully-featured "near production ready" beta release available:
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Hey there @rsms, when do you think Inter is ready to upgrade for Google Fonts? Issue tracking is in google/fonts#3429, but there hasn't been any progress for half a year. My thinking would be to onboard v3.19 for now, then onboard v4 once it's stable. CC @davelab6 |
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@applecuckoo Onboarding 3.19 now sounds like a good idea. |
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Will there still be separate font files for Text and Display? Most Android ROMs don't support using custom font features when selecting a .ttf file to use as the font, and I don't want to be stuck with Inter Text. |
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I do think that having a font without opsz, but having the style of 32 opsz, would be a nice idea. Not just for Android ROMs, but also for apps that don't support variable font options (or only support a list of font weights like Regular and Bold). π§ |
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If you download "Inter v4 beta 1" you'll find individual static font files for every "instance", which includes dedicated fonts for Display and non-display. |
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Can I install the fonts alongside the variable display font? |
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Seems like there's something with Ukrainian
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Would you mind filing an issue for this? Thank you |
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Sure thing! Created an issue. Thanks! |
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v4.0-beta9g is hopefully the last beta before the release. A ton of work was put in by @kenmcd to improve the quality of metadata in the fonts which solved a whole category of issues with style linking (and presentation on MS Windows.) Please test this release! Thank you |
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Anything that uses shape-shifting rendering (like ClearType on MS Windows or GNOME configured this way) will always have imperfect spacing. Earlier versions of Inter didnβt even include TrueType hints by default because so many people were confused why it looked different for them compared to other people using software without shape-shifting rendering. Glad to hear KDE does a better job. AFAIK, GNOME is capable of quality text rendering but may require some patching and/or configuration. For example, the ElementaryOS team did a good job with improving text rendering quality in GNOME. |
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I was using Inter.otf (unhinted) in the last two screenshots provided, so no hinting applied. The spacing seems to be caused by a font weight change that I have brought up multiple times now but no one is acknowledging it. Can anyone confirm that there were very recent changes to the font weight? Even if extremely small, anything? If anyone can confirm the weight changes then the "weird spacing" issue is not a bug. I've noticed that while some letters are one more pixel apart from each other, some other letters are now one pixel closer to each other (compared to last beta). So that tells me that the letters just shifted a itty little bit to accomodate the font weight change (which again, no one seems to acknowledge after bringing it up multiple times). There was also the issue with monospaced numbers being used in place of regular numbers, which I thought was a bug. The following screenshot shows the system calendar view and the calendar app of GNOME 42, side by side:
I have confirmed that the system calendar does indeed call for |
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@AchillesBoi Beta 8 did have tabular numbers (I have just confirmed this), but it appears that the style was updated between 8 and 9 to add the bottom serif on the "1". In your screenshot of June 12 "BETA 8 (normal numbers in clock)" they are visible as tabular numbers, notice the "11" in the calendar (in particular the spacing between the ones, those are not proportional figures). I believe what you've been seeing has always been the tnum version, it's just that their style has been updated with the serifs. |
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Thanks for your hard work, @rsms! We (GitLab) recently updated from 4fc901f to fd99812 (4.0-beta7 to roughly 4.0-beta9g). The variable font size increased from ~264KB to ~325KB which is a ~23% increase. Is that expected? |
Note that GNOME renders and composites all text (incorrectly) in gamma colour space rather than linear, so you do not want to use stem darkening with GNOME. The use of gamma compositing already makes the antialiasing look darker than it should, which compounds with stem darkening to make fonts look too heavy or bold. The Freetype folks generated a Blending Examples chart which demonstrates this problem. The first column is gamma incorrect rendering (what GNOME does). The second column is gamma-corrected rendering without stem darkening. The third column is gamma-corrected rendering with stem darkening (this is the mode recommended by Freetype devs). The fourth column illustrates what would happen if you enable stem darkening without using gamma-corrected rendering (this is why you don't want to use stem darkening on GNOME). The Freetype folks have a documentation page that covers this and a bunch of other details. That said, I'm aware that some people do enable stem darkening as a hack to work around the fact that rendering text with incorrect gamma causes light text on a dark background to be hard to read. Regarding glyph kerning, the main problem with older GNOME apps using Gtk 3 (like most apps on GNOME 42) is that the font rendering method only supports glyph advances which are an integer numbers of pixels. As a result, it's very difficult to get a consistent, even spacing between glyphs. Using GNOME Tweaks to enable the "Full" hinting mode which does horizontal hinting (the default "Slight" is vertical hinting only) may result in more even glyph spacing if the font has high quality hinting, but this comes at the expense of glyph shape and weight accuracy. Inter's automatically generated hinting does not provide good results in this mode. Newer GNOME apps using Gtk 4 (there's a lot more of them starting with GNOME 43/44) use a font rendering method which renders fonts unhinted, and performs sub-pixel glyph positioning both vertically and horizontally. This results in accurate glyph shapes and weights, and doesn't require rounding glyph advances to pixels, so the glyph spacing is nice and even. Inter looks very good in these applications. This comes at the expense of text rendering getting blurrier, and removing support for sub-pixel antialiasing. Note that "GNOME Shell" (the desktop panel, etc) still use the old font rendering method on current versions of GNOME. |
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WOW! A new version of one of my favourite fonts! And the italic fs and ΕΏs have descenders! Thank you very much! Now I am looking forward to the small caps. |
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KΓ€ra Jultomten/Dear Santa! |
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New beta release: v4.0-beta9h |
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This is looking fantastic! Is there a rough timeline for release? |
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Before end of the year |
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Hello @rsms , these updates look great! |
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I've been reading through the comments, but it's a little unclear to me whether Italics are supposed to have been "fixed? Anyway, this is what I'm seeing in my Windows 10 WPF application when using the static beta9h version. Both The latest stable 3.19 doesn't have the issue with the static Windows version. I'm happy to create an issue if necessary - just wanted to make sure it's not already being worked on, or me doing something wrong π UPDATE: I originally wrote that the issue was also present in the variable version, but it turns out it isn't, I wasn't using the proper font name when testing the variable version. It has to be set to "Inter Variable 28pt" (for the non-Italic version).
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That doesn't look right. With XXX which uses dedicated italic reference fonts for hinting, it looks correct for me in Windows 10 (screenshot from WordPad): 
@mol Could you please try this new build and tell me if that resolves the issue for you? |
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Re variable font: The variable font does not have TrueType hints which Windows uses to alter the shape of letters (MS's implementation is called ClearType.) Your original issue is due to suboptimal TrueType hints in the static fonts. The variable fonts won't have the problem simply because there are no hints! However the variable fonts will render differently (on Windows they will render "smoother" and less pixellated than hinted fonts.) |
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Here's a comparison of ClearType on Windows 10 with static fonts (which has TrueType hints) and standard greyscale rendering (as you will find on/in iOS, macOS, Figma etc) 
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@rsms that build you shared solves the issue for me, thanks! π |
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Excellent. Thanks for confirming that. |
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Hello @rsms , the v4 you're working on looks amazing! |
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Glad to hear you like it. My aim is "before the end of the year." It's basically done now but there's maybe a week or so of work remaining with QA and the website |
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Thank you for the answer. Happy to hear that! |
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Hi, @rsms. Do you plan on adding linear endings of letters (like on the "a" , "t", "g", "y" or "e" in the Inter Display variant) into the normal Inter font? If not, can you please add this feature into an stylistic set since it looks a bit more cleaner and consistent with the other letters and numbers in the Inter font imo. Thanks in advance. Edit: With linear endings, i mean the perpendicular terminals in the display variant and the sloped ones in the text variant |
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What do you mean by "linear endings"? |
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I think he means the differences provided by the optical sizing option now, maybe not aware it is a variable axis on v4. |
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I think this is about the perpendicular terminals in the display variants vs the sloped terminals of the text variants? |
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I too, would like to know if there's a setting to enable straight (linear) terminals to letters too. The "c", "e", "g", "t" seem so off to me when their termination is at an angle that it doesn't feel like Inter anymore. |
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I just noticed the switch to v4 on the official rsms.me stylesheet and i am seeing major differences between the "default" font and the variable version, using Edge 119 on Windows 10 (1440p display, so no high-res DPI). Take note of the small text in the sidebar, as well as menu items and the scene summary + labels on the right. Normal v4 Inter: Variable v4 Inter: The text has a totally different weighting, feels thinner and the characters seem... off? This also makes UI elements scale differently and sometimes a lot harder to read. The x-height also seems to be lower? Is there anything I am missing here? Some special flags I should enable? |
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Small Update: I think i kind of fixed it by setting "opsz" to 14. |
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I had opsz set to 32, and noticed the same thing as well. Setting it to 14 seemed to fix it as well, I knew I wasn't mad.... |
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I have the same issue. Setting "opsz" apply only for variable font but I think the problem is with normal version which really looks a bit taller in my case. |
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Inter-4.0.zip\extras\woff-hinted |
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Anoyne can confirm that Inter-4.0 isnt supported slnt? Edit: done at #646 (comment) |
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Dear @rsms, I came across your fantastic font and I'd love to use it on a website aimed at teaching French. I went in the lab and tried to add them all to see if Inter had the right symbol for each of them... ... and the answer is almost all of them! :-) Three symbols that are not compatible with Inter are:
Symbols that Inter already handles perfectly (which is already incredible compard to most other fonts): Do you think you could add them to be fully compatible with the French IPA symbols? Best, Laurent |
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Hi, I'm comparing v4 TTF vs OTF and WOFF and TTF has 1px taller height. Is that right? |
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Is there any way to extend the optical axis further to reduce the x-height to fit medium sized headings? @rsms ? |
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I'm in the process of integrating Inter Display into the main Inter family as an opsz variable-font axis. This work is done in the master git branch.
Latest beta build: v4.0-beta9h (July 13, 2023)
Try it in your web browser: https://rsms.me/etc/inter-opsz/(outdated version)All reactions